Welcome back to the mini-series of episodes specifically devoted to leadership. Whether you have a team of 1 or 100, this series will help you be more clear and confident in your leadership so you can get the results you want for your business.
Have you ever worked for—or been—an indecisive boss? How about someone who swoops in and “saves the day” time and again? Neither of those feel very good, either to the team or to the leader, yet they are far too common in today’s workplace. Why is it so hard to find—or be—a great leader?
The fact is, leadership is its own discipline, one that requires study and practice. Today’s episode features a special guest expert on leadership development, Jen Frey. Jen is a Master Certified Life and Leadership Coach, speaker, and host of the Think on Purpose podcast.
You’re going to learn:
- How to build self-confidence so you can get over indecision and evolve as a leader
- How to empower your team to rise to their best and why "being lazy" helps you do that
- How to motivate people towards a goal, and why celebration works better than deprivation in this department
And if you haven't already joined the Superabound Collective, now is the time! It is a community of soulful business owners like you where you can get support with the challenges of leadership. And it's free for a limited time.
Learn more and join the Collective here.
Episode Transcript
Steve Haase 0:00
Welcome to the Superabound Podcast with Master Coaches Erin Aquin and Steve Haase, where business owners like you learn tools that help you clarify vision, clear up static, and overcome challenges. You are listening to episode number 246: Being a Great Boss with Jen Frey
Have you ever worked for—or been—an indecisive boss? How about someone who swoops in and “saves the day” time and again? Neither of those feel very good, either to the team or to the leader, yet they are far too common in today’s workplace. Why is it so hard to find—or be—a great leader?
The fact is, leadership is its own discipline, one that requires study and practice. Today’s episode features a special guest expert on leadership development, Jen Frey. Jen is a Master Certified Life and Leadership Coach, speaker, and host of the Think on Purpose podcast.
You’re going to learn how to build self-confidence, how to empower your team to rise to their best, how to motivate people towards a goal, and much more. Enjoy!
Steve Haase 2:00
So you're in for a treat today, Jen Frey and I were in our master coach training together. And we really went through it. We started as, you know, wide eyed, enthusiastic coaches, and we finished as wizened old veterans of the master coach training process. And through working with Jen, after that, I came to see how much she cares about leaders, how much she cares about improving the lives of people at work, and her expertise. And just, I don't want to use the word care again, but like her interest in really helping people thrive, in their role as leaders and with their teams, has really touched me. And so I'm excited to have you here on the call and share your voice with everyone on the podcast, Jen. So welcome to the Superabound podcast.
Jen Frey 2:59
Thank you, I'm so excited to be here. We've been in each other's world for a couple of years, sort of, like rotating around each other. And then intersecting upon occasion, I've had the pleasure of being coached by Steve and by Erin. So I feel like it's, it's really, it's really fun to be on this on this podcast, because two years ago, I would not have even put myself on the same stage as the two of you. So to be considered a colleague that feels really amazing. So I appreciate that introduction.
Steve Haase 3:31
So why don't we start with a little bit about what, what changed for you, because I know a lot of leaders kind of find themselves in a new position, but their self image hasn't caught up to that position. And that's a source of, you could say, imposter syndrome, or just kind of a general struggle or lack of self confidence. For you what, what was that shift? And maybe we can extrapolate that to how we can help other leaders do the same.
Jen Frey 4:01
I remember getting my first job as a director with that title, right. So I had been the coordinator and the manager. And now I was the director. And I had a very distinct moment of sitting at my desk and thinking, I'm being hired for my thinking, I'm being hired for my brain, it's not so much about what I'm doing anymore. And like feeling a little bit of panic, like, I don't think I'm smart enough. I don't think I can do this. It's like, I don't know what this means, right? So much doubt, so much questioning. And at that time that was BC, before coaching. And so really coming into work or feeling like an imposter and feeling very tentative. I was I was coming into an experienced team and feeling like, I'm not really sure why they chose me. Like there's a lot of other people that probably could take the helm and steer the ship in a way that I I don't know that I can. And so I think the first step was really like, stepping into an acknowledging what I actually do know, right, like being able to see oh, I don't know everything about the operations, I don't know everything about the history. But I do have this particular skill set that will help and sort of building the evidence and like one project at a time, one decision at a time, one sort of experience at a time, building that self confidence, and never ever feeling 100% self confident, but like I could get there, I could tip the scale just enough to be willing to make a decision I could, I could tip the scale just enough to be willing to make a call. And at the time, and in retrospect, I'm like, Oh, I made some bad decisions, there were some things that I would do differently. And I don't know about you, Steve. But in my experience, a boss who's indecisive is 1000 times worse than working for a boss who doesn't make decisions. It's somehow I think I was operating under that, like, very salt, like unconscious assumption. But I think that's kind of where I was coming from.
Steve Haase 6:08
You make a great point that, you know, at first, it's going to feel really weird. And you just kind of have to get up the courage to make those first decisions to call those first meetings to have your presence felt within the team. But over time, it does, you know, your self concept kind of catches up with your reality until your reality shifts again, and you have to go through it all over again. But that process of just committing to the responsibilities of the role is is a step that you can take to kind of close that gap on a day by day basis.
Jen Frey 6:47
Yeah, and I think something that helps me is I was very clear on I didn't necessarily know that how but I was very clear on who do I serve? What does that look like? So I was in a service based industry and So I came in with some, like clear parameters. So members, first clients first people first, right? However, you kind of want to phrase that depending on your industry, that was really important to me that that was at the center of every decision. The idea of the world stops again, we were in a customer service industry. So that meant if I was hanging out with other employees, and a customer came up, all conversation stopped, world stops to focus on the person in front of me, right. So that was very deliberate. And we reinforced that it wasn't like, wasn't just, oh, customer comes first. But it was like, we were very deliberate and intentional, when the customer needed something world stops, and we attend to them. So world stops, members, first customers first people first. And then we had this idea, this concept of using luxury language, because we wanted to be in a brand that was competing with was in the fitness industry. So it was like boutique studios sort of high end places. So with luxury language, we would say, for example, children instead of kids, right, it sort of set the standard for how we talk how we speak. If you've ever been to Chick fil A, you understand the idea of my pleasure, right? So building that in, we would never say no problem, it was your welcome or my pleasure. So building some of those key concepts into the culture. And that made the house a little bit easier, because I had at least some basic framework of how I wanted to come in what was important to me. And then I made all the mistakes outside of those couple of things. And I think I just I think I had probably more trust in my team than I did in myself at certain times, like I can remember, I had to deliver a was like a presentation for I can't remember the CEO or the president some more someone higher up in the organization. And I had three of my closest managers, either standing up there with me or in the room. And thinking like having that intentional thought, like, okay, like, these people literally have my back, like, I know, I can trust them. And they're in this with me, like, like, literally, they were in the room with me that made such a huge difference. So I guess I would add, like, you don't have to feel confident all the time. But can you find the people who can like help you with that, can you find the people to help fill that gap. And that's a struggle when you become a solopreneur.
Steve Haase 8:40
And Jen, that's such a great point, in terms of the struggle that a lot of people feel when they have a team, or if they are newly promoted, is that they're on the hook, suddenly, they're responsible in this new and bigger way. But in the end, it's, it's having great people on the team, like you're there for them, you're there to help them perform at their best. So the idea that somehow you're not enough or that you don't have the skills is almost too self focused for what the role actually is, which is to empower the people to rise to their best to to have clear targets to do meaningful work. And like you said, if you know, some of the key things that will create the change that will make their work more meaningful, that will have them be more successful, that will move the company forward, then focusing on those things, whether it's changes in the language changes in the culture, will go a long way towards seeing tangible gains in in your workplace. And when you see a change that you wanted to have happen, that is happening, that is a tremendous source of confidence that you can kind of tuck away in your leadership treasure chest for those moments when you're kind of questioning whether you are enough or if you can, you know if you're competent. Yeah.
Jen Frey 10:06
And I think, you know, like knowing that people had my back knowing we were sort of all in it together, that made a huge difference. I used to tell my team like, Listen, I want to be the lazy manager. That is my goal. And what I mean by that is not like I'm gonna go and sit in the sun and not do work all day. But I have a whole team of experts. And I don't need to make every decision. I don't need to like, concern myself with how you do the things that you're really good at, like. So when there were big decisions to make as much as possible. We would come together, I would bring the problem to the team, I would ask them for their input. And, of course, at the end of the day, I still had to make the decision but I didn't have to make it alone. I didn't have to, like BS my way through something that I knew nothing about. I could just ask and people really were respond to that everyone wants to feel heard, right? The people on my team, we're experts in their fields of law and in their fields. So it only made sense. So I'm like, and I've seen so many times as managers or directors, we were fighting for our own worth. And so we take on work that we don't have to take on, we try to make decisions that aren't ours to make, we swoop in and try to save the day when no one actually needs to be saved. And so when I say like, be the lazy boss, that's what I mean, like, take a step back and let the people do what they're really good at. And they in turn can learn to be lazy to and that they don't have to. They don't have to, like make decisions and other people's arenas, like they get to use that network also. So we all get to like, and it's not even like stay in your silo. It's not that either, it's creating this interconnection, where no one has to work harder than is necessary. So maybe it's like a work smarter, versus work harder type of situation. And again, I see that so often. And I've seen it in myself, especially when I step into a new role into a new position.
Steve Haase 12:08
Oh, can somebody who has just fully committed themselves to the story, our culture tells that working as hard as you can, for as long as you can, is the highest good. I was talking about this with Erin earlier today, it's like, it's almost more sacrilegious to say you should work less, or you should try to work less than some things that people think would actually be sacrilegious.
Jen Frey 12:36
Right? Even like, right, like the time like, Okay, well, you're in this job, you need to have button seat for 10 hours or 12 hours to prove you're working hard. Like, why? What good is that actually doing because if you are the manager, the leader, your people really do not want you around for 12 hours, like it makes them feel like they have to stay. And it makes them think that you don't trust them. And how many times right, I mean, there's tons of research on this. People don't leave jobs, they leave bosses. So if we can figure out where we're being the boss that people want to leave, we can we can course correct, and it's such a gift to give people trust autonomy. And unless you're literally a brain surgeon, most of the mistakes that people make are correctable, right, we, we make such a big deal about launches and new products and all of these things, and most of them are correctable, and that is actually one of the other sort of like tenants that I brought in is we're going to make mistakes. And when we do we always make it right. And I must have repeated that 10 times a day. Okay, you, you said something wrong, you made the wrong call, we can make it right. We always make it right. There's always a way to fix things, repair the relationship offer, whatever needs to be offered to make it right.
Steve Haase 12:55
I'm trying to work on that one with my kids. Not easy. How do you make this right? Like, I don't know, I hate him. I'm like, Ah, let's still try. Let's see
Jen Frey 13:07
if they can even try that you can like, right, so many adults don't they don't even have that language. They don't have that framework. And I know for sure for me before coaching, I was very much and that black and white thinking like we either succeeded or we failed, we either did it wrong, or we did it right. There was no in between. And I think that's one of the huge learnings I've had with coaching is like the both and and like living in the gray because that's where most of life happens. Right? Very rarely is something as dramatic as the black and the white is what I used to think it was. And again, from an employee perspective, if I'm working for someone who only thinks in black and white, then that that I would imagine that I was not always easy to work for. Because I had a very specific idea of what was right and a very specific idea of what was wrong and not necessarily a great way to communicate that I just knew that when I thought
Steve Haase 14:03
right or wrong. I found that I'm happiest when I'm holding two truths at the same time. Like my ability to cope with life and be effective. And like just happy in my world rises dramatically when I hold two opposing truths. Yes, I love. Right that's like not succumbing to the all or nothing thinking or I think one of the biggest breakthroughs I ever had was when I was complaining to my my coach, training group. It's like I don't have enough time to learn this piece that I want to learn right I wanted to perform the Beethoven piano concerto number five I was like I couldn't possibly do this. It's requires too much time and commitment. They said could you learn for me ours was like, Oh yeah, I can learn four bars. And then like, everything opened up, like, Wait, if I can learn four bars, I can learn eight, I can learn 1000. And eventually I did like, it took me three years. But I learned all 1000 bars of it. And and that moment, though of, yes, you have obligations? Yes, you are not a professional musician. Yes, you are not a college student who can just spend eight hours practicing like you did when you were a college student. And you can learn four bars. And if you piece that together, it becomes something. So the the ability to want something enough to hold its possibility, even in the midst of the real headwinds or challenges that you'll be facing is a real key, it's a key to unlocking the things that we want and to helping our people do the same as they face challenges in their work and in lives in general.
Jen Frey 16:04
Yeah, it's even like the confidence I was saying what like, it wasn't that I felt all confident. But I could feel both I could feel the nervousness, the uncertainty, that doubt, I just needed to feel a CD, but enough confidence to be willing to take the next step. And so often, I think, in my past that has just, it stopped me, right. Either that I don't know, or it's too hard, or what will people think? Or what if I fail? What if I screw it up? All those kinds of thoughts? Have for sure stopped me at different parts of my life. And I mean, they still stopped me now to be totally honest, it. But it's I think a lot, I think it's much more infrequent than it ever has. And because I have more authority over my own brain, I can like talk back to it now. And I didn't have that skill before.
Steve Haase 16:54
You have an interesting insight on encouragement that I'd like to discuss, and particularly celebrating along the way. You're telling me your your beliefs on how to motivate a team or even yourself towards a big goal. That might be a ways off.
Jen Frey 17:14
Yeah, I think that something happens, where as adults, we I don't know, we become like really serious or we become scared or something happens in us where that I like the idea of celebrating stops. And the example that I like to think about is if you've ever been around little children are like a toddler who's walking. And it's like, they take one step. And we're like, hey, we get so excited. And we clap. And when they fall, we still clap, like, oh, you fell down amazing. Or like oopsy, Daisy, no big deal, and you keep going somewhere along the way, we lose that. We lose that, right? It's like now instead of one step and encouragement and excitement it becomes it's only one podcast. It's only like it was my first meeting. But it was only my it was only the first meeting, I probably won't do it very well again, or it was only my first book we like we categorize it as something that's negative. Whereas at one point, it was like one was amazing. And I think the difference is we can look at a toddler, we can look at a child and agree and see their innate value, like the kid doesn't actually have to do anything for us to love them and see their worth. And somewhere along the way the world takes over. And we get all these ideas. And we start to believe that in order to be worthy, we have to do something we have to show up we have to produce. And so that creates a fear like, well, it's not enough, I didn't produce enough. I didn't do enough. I didn't I can't even think of like, I did a 5k Well, that I mean, who cares about a 5k? Like, that's not that big of a deal. Maybe if I do a half marathon, maybe then I'll feel like I've done something worthy, then I do a half marathon like wow. I mean, there were tons of people there. So let me try a marathon. And at the end of a marathon, all I came away with was like stomach problems, like a lot of blisters. And that was it. I didn't actually feel more worthy because I didn't realize that worthiness comes from me. And so we're all out there just like chasing this feeling chasing, trying to reclaim our own value. And then we're afraid we're afraid to celebrate we're afraid to like see the good that we do. Because it might mean it's not enough, it might mean that we haven't actually accomplished what we think we have. We might not actually feel good at the end of it. And so there's so much fear. So I like to think about number one, increasing the celebration, right? You don't have to wait till the end of a project to celebrate. You could actually celebrate starting the project. You could actually celebrate the first meeting of a project you could celebrate a canceled meeting for the project, but there's so many of these little moments that we get to add in this enthusiasm and this encouragement, and it takes us coming out of our fear. It takes us like, we have to be in courage, right? Like in courage and bravery, in order to allow ourselves to truly celebrate, not just the action, not just the activity, but also the people, the people who are in the room. I think that's the shift.
Steve Haase 20:26
That's really interesting. I guess some of the questions that come up for me are around, like the difference between inherent worth and good work. Because what like the the objections to what you're saying that I can hear already, are? Well, we don't want to just celebrate any old thing, right? We got to keep the bar high.
Jen Frey 20:48
Right? People might get too used to it. People might like they might start slacking if we celebrate too much. Yeah, interesting.
Steve Haase 20:54
So I guess it's maybe teasing out the idea of, of celebrating milestones celebrating progress from holding a high bar and, and, and freeing people supporting people to do their best work.
Jen Frey 21:09
Yeah, I think there's right it's like that, that both and that we were talking about, I can celebrate my individual contribution anytime I want. Right? Like that is always available to me, like I could celebrate brushing my teeth this morning if I wanted to, right. And we I think sometimes we're afraid like that idea of too much celebration. But the truth is, every time we celebrate, it's just reinforcing the positive things that we're doing. And our brain wants more of it. So from like a brain perspective, there's really no such thing. We're not going to get like lackadaisical from celebrating too much. So knowing that I can create that within myself, I don't actually need to wait for my supervisor or my boss, to give me the gold star to tell me I'm doing amazing, I can show up from that value and that worth on my own. And then as the like leader of the organization, or the leader of the department, where can I recognize that effort? Where can I recognize where people are, are showing up? And just questioning myself? Like, why should I wait until the end? Just because that's what we've always done before? It's interesting, right? It's interesting to notice what we make that mean, as a potent, and that's what holds us back. So if we can open up and hear again, right? It's such a great opportunity for coaching. Like, what if celebrating could just be because it's fun, like, what if work, and projects and technology and all the things that we do? Like, what if it could actually be more fun than what we're allowing, right now, what would change?
Steve Haase 22:44
I love that. The I referenced this. So often, I guess it's one of my, like, fundamental books that I've read, but it's drive by Dan Pink. And he talks about the, what motivates us to do what we do. And you know, basically finding that our best work comes when we're actually just playing when we're actually just enjoying the process, not when we're working towards any particular external reward, right, if you're playing a game, just to win the game, or if you're playing the game, because you're gonna win money, at the end of it, you will perform better when you're playing just to win, or just to enjoy versus playing for any kind of external reward. And so I think as leaders, being aware that people's intrinsic motivation is going to be much more powerful than any reward that we can incentivize them with, is going to help us bring more of that fun to it, and allow us to actually be in a state of play of discovery of of wonder and a celebration. And have that be the way that we hold a high bar, because people will want to rise to their best. And when we create that space for them to be more fulfilled to be more self actualized. At work, they're going to bring more of that to the process.
Jen Frey 24:10
Well, and I think that's the reminder for leaders to right, because we've heard that expression, like it's lonely at the top. And like, in my case, I was like the highest position in my building. So I didn't have peers, I didn't have an onsite manager, director, VP. So when I was waiting for other people to recognize my work, that didn't feel very fun when I was like making decisions, and I'm thinking like, Does anyone see how hard I'm working? Right? And I'm waiting for that. Like you said, that external response that I was not going to get it made made my approach to work different than when I could switch and be like, I actually love the work that I do. I love the people that I serve. I enjoy being here. And no one else actually has to know my experience because I can like create that I can cultivate it for myself, it's a huge shift. And I don't think we spend enough time teaching leaders, how to like how to develop that for themselves, we expect them like, Hey, I know you've been part of a team, but now you're so good at what you do, we're gonna go, have you like be the captain of the ship, but we're not going to actually give you any support, we just think you're really great. So, go, I'll go motivate yourself, go motivate the team, good luck. It's like, Wait, why? What do I have to do now, it's totally different.
Steve Haase 25:34
And that practice of supporting yourself is so important. Because as you take on more responsibility, as you have these kind of higher level positions, you know, your your managers may not be in that position of supporting you, right? They just might be even more transactional about it, or, you know, what are the results? Like, should, they may have less kind of personal care for you. So unless someone is taking that personal care, ideally, you, it's, it's going to be lacking. And
Jen Frey 26:15
not only your managers, but also like the person above you, right? Like your VP, like, my VP wasn't sending me thank you notes. Like I was sending my team, my VP wasn't like, Hey, Jen, let's let's go out to lunch, or how are you doing? I? They just assumed I was fine. Until and if I said otherwise. Right. So you're when you're at that, that level, you're not you're not getting any of the, like accolades or reinforcement from the people who are on your team. And you're also not necessarily going to get it from the person to whom you're reporting. So it feels like it's like that in between space, like, Am I doing? Okay? I don't know. They'll let they'll complain, when I screw up, I'm sure of that. But like finding your own, like finding your own GPS, finding your own way to, like, stay stable, especially when they think you've made a mistake, especially when they think you've gone off course, how do I, like keep myself level headed and not emotionally respond to that.
Steve Haase 27:18
That's huge. And I think one of those ways is, by celebrating your progress by recognizing the choices that you've made, the decisions you've made, the progress you're making. And this is true, whether you're leading within a company, whether you're in charge of a company, whether you're a solopreneur, something that Erin and I do pretty much every day, we have a Slack bot that says what were your wins today, time to celebrate your wins. And we'll just share them in the channel. It's just me and her. But that process of putting down a bullet point, you know, coached my clients, well had an awesome conversation with Jen, you know, whatever the things were. You put that there and you realize, yeah, this happened today. I gave it my best I was I was here and I played my game I played at the highest level, I could hear my wins today. It's like giving yourself giving yourself a high five, knowing that no one else might be there to do it, but that it matters.
Jen Frey 28:21
What's such a good point too, because we think of celebrating like, it has to be this big thing. Like if anyone's ever experienced like a pizza party at work or jeans day, like ooh, it's like a big deal. But we can offer ourselves those celebrations. Like I just like the simple reminder of like, I did the best I could with the information that I had today. And like it, it's sort of a celebration of like, Yeah, I did the best I could. And it's also sort of like a kind of like a mantra or like a grounding, but it can be both and like Yes. And then I can sort of call out what were those what were those decisions? What were the things that I felt like I showed up authentically. And rest in that it doesn't have to be like, it doesn't have to be big, right? It's like the toddler. It's a first step. It's like the one thing and even when they fall down, it's like, well, not a big deal. We can get back up we can learn. That's the only way we actually keep moving forward.
Steve Haase 29:27
One of my rules of thumb is that if I feel weird or vulnerable or silly about something, and that's the thing I should do, like I'm gonna raise my hand about this because this feels like a really stupid question. But I'm going to do it because I know there are other people out there and that's going to be my act of service is like being the one who's gonna look stupid. And it's just a it's just a path that I choose to take because I know I how easy it is to get wrapped up in that feeling of like shame, vulnerability, fear. And then, like live your life in that space, like be enclosed by those feelings. And so I do my best. And I certainly don't succeed all the time. But these are things I look for as like when I'm feeling that, to actually walk towards it, in hopes that it will let other people know that it's okay to feel those really unpleasant feelings. Yeah. But that your your, your life will go on. Right? We were all there. We're all human. Yeah, that's, that's a practice that I take very seriously.
Jen Frey 30:43
And when you're the leader, when you're making those decisions, we are going to get some of them wrong. Like, right. So the example that I always think about is I was doing it was a team meeting. Now in my mind's eye, there were like, you know, 100 people in the room, I think it was probably like 20, but still a good handful of people. And I was doing the like, we're gonna be great. And everything is amazing. And we're like, I think it was after COVID and sort of like this coming together and like rejuvenation of the business. So it was like very rah rah type of speech. And what I was trying to say was like, we're all in this together type of message. And what I truly said was, remember everyone, you don't have to go commando. And the whole room kind of got quiet. And then people started laughing and someone raised their hand and they're like, think that means what you think it means. When I started laughing. It was like Don't be a hero kind of thing is what I that's what I was envisioning in my head like, nothing about whether or not you were wearing underwear, that was not the intent of the message. But like, became this big joke and I like sort of laughed it off. And now I can tell the story but it was like kind of embarrassing at the time. And that's also kind of what I'm setting myself up for as a leader Right? Like I'm gonna be on the spot I might say something that I doesn't mean what I think it means or I might grab the wrong word I'd Can I can I support myself? Through that, right? Like, can I can I still be enough for me? Even when I say things that don't make sense.
Steve Haase 32:20
I hope everyone can remember Jen's commando example and take heart whenever you say something you didn't mean to say. So Jen, where can people learn more about you? There's been a delightful conversation if they want to keep it going with you. Where should they go?
Jen Frey 32:37
Yeah, so find me on Instagram at Jen.frey.coaching. Find me on LinkedIn: Jen Frey, or on my website, JenFreycoaching.com.
Steve Haase 32:46
Awesome. And you have a podcast too, right?
Jen Frey 32:50
And I have a podcast. I always forget that one. It's still brand new. So the Think on Purpose podcast. Yes. I’ll have to have you on it next.
Steve Haase 32:58
Gladly. We'll include those links in the show notes as well. And anything else before we wrap up?
Jen Frey 33:08
I think you know, go out and celebrate, like, What's one thing from today that you can celebrate and it might just be listening to this podcast, like taking a little bit of time for yourself? Maybe you picked up a tip or a trick or a funny story, if nothing else, but just to celebrate that you got exactly what you needed from this message today.
Steve Haase 33:28
Thank you so much, Jen. I appreciate you and I'll talk to you next time.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
