Ep 40. Your Mentor Is Human. Now What?

This week's Mixer gets into the complicated moment when a mentor, teacher, or coach you admire turns out to be unmistakably human.

What happens when disappointment shows up, a teacher's choices no longer make sense to you, or the advice that once helped starts asking you to ignore your own experience?

Erin and Elana explore how coaches can keep learning without swallowing an entire worldview, how to recognize the difference between expertise and projection, and what a mentor's community may reveal that polished teaching alone cannot.

If you have ever felt guilty for questioning someone who helped you, or wondered whether disappointment means it is time to leave, listen for a way to stay curious without abandoning your personal values.

In This Episode, You'll Hear About

• The subtle ways admiration can turn into outsourced authority
• Why disappointment with a mentor may be important information about your own leadership
• How to separate a teacher's useful work from the parts that do not fit your life
• What to notice when a mentor's message and lived choices appear to diverge
• Why the people around a teacher can tell you as much as the teaching itself

This episode is for coaches, creative business owners, and lifelong students who want to learn deeply, keep their standards, and trust themselves when a teacher no longer fits as neatly as they once did.

Erin is enjoying an Aperol gin and tonic with rosemary from the garden. Elana has ginger liqueur and peach juice for the show.

Connect with Elana Mckernan and Erin Aquin

Elana Mckernan is a Master Certified Life and Creativity Coach who specializes in helping perfectionists create more by treating themselves better. Find her on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/elanamckernan/ and book a consultation at https://www.coachingwithelana.com/book-a-consult.

Erin Aquin is a Master Certified Life Coach and co-author of the #1 bestseller "Superabound: Live the Life the Universe is Dreaming For You." Read the book at https://besuperabound.com/book and book a consultation at https://besuperabound.com/consultation.

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Transcript

Hello and welcome to the Coaching Mixer. I'm your host Elana Mckernan and I'm Erin Aquin. Your other host host Erin before we started recording Erin was like you can intro. And I was like oh maybe it'll be less awkward. But it really wasn't just the same amount of awkward. Yes. Then you know we're real. Yes. There we go. What are you drinking today, Erin? Okay, so we had talked about gin and I was like, I think I might have made this before, but it's like my favorite summer drink. So, this is like an appperal spritz, but as a gin and tonic. So, instead of like normally I think an appperal spritz is appperol and like procco or something bubbly. Um, this is appperol, gin, and tonic. And then I burnt a little bit of rosemary over top of it from my garden. I'm like really vibing with rosemary. It's like my it's my my my herb this week. So I love it. And it might bug me because it's like floating on the top, but it makes it pretty. Tickle your nose. It is beautiful. Oh my gosh. It just like the light just caught it and it just completely like changed. Yes. These are the I love these glasses, too. This is like water. Beautiful. That looks amazing. I'm very impressed. I have a confession. Yeah. Uhoh. What are you doing? I thought that I had um What was it? Were we doing rum or jin today? I think Jin. Oh, I had it on my calendar as Jin, but we did last I have a double confession then because I thought maybe I had a stroke. I don't know what happened to me. I thought we were doing rum today and I don't have rum so I was like oh wait no was it Jin? I don't know. Whatever happened I don't have anything related to it. Um either rum or gin. I was like I don't have this. So I um made with the ginger lour. I guess I need to go to the liquor store. I made with a ginger lour um and peach juice. Oo, which was like kind of weird and interesting but way too sweet. So then I was like watering it down. I also may have started drinking like 15 minutes ago because there was too much and I had to like keep watering it down because it was too sweet. Anyway, disaster cocktail this week, but there was something. I almost at four o'clock I was like I could make one now and just test it and I'm like no I think that's it's the summer but it's a it's a yeah maybe we do like a slightly later version of this one time where it's our second cocktail and see what happens. That would be pure chaos but it could be fun. I love it. And you also have a topic for us. Yes. So, it's a total surprise. I'm very excited and now I feel like a little bit sheepish. Um, I hope you like it. Okay. So, I was just thinking about um mentors and teachers and how like I think it's a pretty natural progression for students to like kind of always have someone they're looking up to but then, you know, reach some points where maybe they diverge from those mentors or maybe they see like, oh, those mentors are actually human and I don't like that. And it can be kind of a confusing and complicated process. So I thought it might be interesting as people who probably have been in a role both as like student and maybe also mentor and who have um learned from people who are people and like imperfect like to just talk about how we navigate that cuz like I think my personal feelings have shifted quite dramatically over time. So I just kind of something juicy that might be fun to talk about. Yeah. I mean, what have you noticed has shifted for you over time around either being looked up to as a mentor or as looking up to other people as your mentor? I think for me it's much easier, this is maybe an identity thing we'll get into when I'm halfway through the cocktail. It's much easier for me to see myself as like Yeah. as like this this student who's like kind of looking up to people. And maybe that's changed a bit. I don't put people on pedestals anymore in the way that I used to. But I do think like in my development as a coach, I sort of had to go through the experience of being very disappointed in some of the people that I looked up to when I realized like, oh, they are human. They have flaws. They don't operate exactly as I would. um and going through like that disappointment and maybe even like frustration or wishing they were different. Um and now I think I still think like it's important to hold our peers and the industry in general to a high standard. And also I am not as bothered by that anymore. I'm like, yeah, of course they're human. Everyone's just like trying to figure this out. Nobody really knows the right way to operate. We're all kind of making [ __ ] up as we go. So, I feel like I'm a lot more relaxed, I guess, around my mentors and it's much easier for me now to like take the parts that are helpful and leave the parts that aren't. Yeah. What about you? I I mean I I love what you just said because I think it sort of it's been my experience like I've had spiritual teachers and like I've had like pretty serious commitment to people who then turned out to as you said be very human and the first couple of times that I was really felt like let down by a teacher or a mentor I actually think coming into the coaching world, I know some people like have their coaches on pedestals and like think that, you know, whoever whatever school of thought they learned coaching from, like that person's infallible, but I remember having like a moment with um someone in a coaching setting who was I definitely would consider a mentor. Um and they said basically point blank after you know we had spent tens of thousands of dollars doing their trainings and all this stuff very last day of one of these like kind of advanced trainings said I am making all of this up like all of these things I just taught you are my thoughts and it's not like a haha gotcha moment. It's like because I believe these things, I've created this whole world and a whole school around this particular teaching. And I remember her kind of like just saying that and I felt like tremendous permission to actually become like the whole training was about like thought leadership and I was like oh she's not saying go be go parrot what I've been teaching you right saying I made all of this up with my creative mind and found things that worked for me in my life and have helped a lot of people. I hope you go do the same. I found that so liberating and I know a lot of people have different ideas and relationship to that person. So, and I'm not like if anybody had like some kind of trauma thing with this person, you know, I I can't say that this is more important than that. But like for me coming out of a context where you know I had a lot of yoga almost guruy type spiritual teachers to hear everything that you've invested so much of your time, energy, money into it just made it all up. How as like this is how powerful your mind is. when you believe something and you get behind it, you can make anything happen. And I was this is very like I I thought that was very cool. Mhm. And I mean it's sort of it's interesting. I mean I've said this before I think with with you. It's all very similar to like the practice of magic. Like you're calling something into being that isn't there. Believing it so hard. you're aligning your life to it. And I think that is it's beautiful to have mentors that can be examples of that. Where I think it's problematic is when you're just kind of borrowing their thoughts and their beliefs and their system and believing that because that particular bubble of stuff works for you that the person must be perfect and everything they have to say on every topic must be perfect because I I had another moment later on where someone was reflecting back to me this person's relationship advice and I was like that those were her thoughts about it. Yeah, I would never want the kind of relationships that she has. And I guarantee a lot of what she taught 10 years ago is probably not what she's saying now. Yeah. Like let her evolve and don't hold on to something that helped her figure out the life she was in. Right. Yeah. So, it was Yeah. That's I don't know. That's kind of where I'm That's how I think about it, I guess, now. Mhm. That's such a I think that's such an empowering way to think about it. And it's it's interesting because I think like even five years ago, I I know five years ago, like I heard some of the people that I look up to talking about some of these things and for me, I was like icky. It felt icky to me. I'm like, well, of course, like like it felt like it was coming from a place of like, don't criticize me, right? which it may or may not have been. But now I think what I find what I what feels the most empowering to me around this and that's not going to be what's most empowering to everyone but like what feels most empowering to me is identifying if I feel a sense of frustration or disappointment toward the person who I am like looking up to as like a little signal to me or like a flag that's like you care about this. Maybe you're being called to lead here. Maybe you have things to contribute in this area. And like like that shift for me feels really good and really interesting.

Yeah. And I I mean I think what I where I've seen myself get into trouble and I've seen like other people obviously kind of fall into this is like when you think that because someone can teach about one topic that they somehow know everything. And I know that that's like very simplistic and no adult would say oh no of course like that that would be stupid. But I mean, yeah, I have watched like I wouldn't take parenting advice from someone who didn't have kids. Mhm. Because it's theoretical. Mhm. But it doesn't mean that like if they are a master in some other area that I wouldn't totally follow their protocol for that. But I might have to say like

they don't have this other factor in their life that I do. So, yeah, I'm probably not getting up at 5 in the morning to like become really good at martial arts, even if it's what my martial arts teacher says you should do. Right. It's like very convoluted. I guess the drink is starting to work. No, not at all. But I think it's like I think when people start outsourcing their own authority and their own specific situation to well this is what the teacher said I should sort of like yeah it's easier to just follow someone else's plan but it probably needs like a certain discernment based on what your life looks like and what's realistic for you and your energy and yeah like I wouldn't build my business the way the person who founded Google did because that's not relevant to me. Mhm. And you still might find I mean I don't know about the found Google necessarily probably not but like you might find some things that using your discernment you then filter through your own lens and you come to I think part of what I think part of what helped this shift with me and what I see in a lot of newer coaches or just people in general is um they are so harsh with themselves and perfectionist about the tools that they're learning. Like they use the tools not just as like a mechanism to bludgeon themselves, but they hurt they harm themselves with like how rigid they are about like learning perfectly. And so then I think it's very easy then to project that onto the teacher and be like, well, you're not applying this in these rigid ways, so like what's up with that? Um, but I think and some teachers like might play into that. I don't like I'm not saying that it's all on the student necessarily. And also I think for me things shifted when I just became kinder to myself. I like chilled out a bit. in terms of what I expected from my teachers and my mentors and I was much more able to accept them as human and just be like oh yeah like they can come up with a brilliant idea and not apply it to 75% of their life and it's still a brilliant idea that I will use my discernment to use in certain areas and I would also never want their life in these areas because I think that there are ways to do better. Yeah. Yeah. Because a lot of times like people who are and people who are excellent teachers and excellent mentors, you know, they have a way of explaining things and taking an idea and turning it into something that many people can utilize. But usually the way that they got there was not by actually following that teaching. they tried a whole bunch of other stuff that like helped them formulate it and a lot of times even then it's still very theoretical. Um,

and what I mean what you just said is like I I feel the same way about listening to other people's opinions. I'm just like I don't put a lot of stock in opinions of people whose lives I wouldn't want. Mhm. And if I look up to someone, it's usually not because like I judge a spiritual community based on the people in that community, not usually the teacher. Of course, the teacher has to say something that has like some kind of transmission to me. But if I would never go like to a yoga class where like everybody's like sad and checked out and on their phones, even if I thought the instruction was good, I would be like, "Something weird is going on here. I'm here. I'm here for the field of attention, not just for how specific and anatomically correct the teacher is." H so I think it's kind of like there is a relationship between like the teacher and the community or the mentor and the people around them because just like coaches it's like you could be technically the most precise incredible coach who follows all the rules of whatever modality that you use. But if your the clients around you, the students that you teach are not moving towards what they want in their life. Are you really like is that good life coaching? Have you technically executed it correctly? Mhm. So I kind of always like look at like how much are the people changing in the ways that this particular school of thought was supposed to help them. Yeah. I mean I've had that experience as well in the reverse where there's been a coach or like a like a Yeah. a coach or leader who I'm like okay like I could take them or leave them. Yeah. Maybe they're not like the level of skill that I might like to see, but they create like an amazing community and I'm like, I want to be a part of that. I've had that experience before as well.

Yeah. I mean, I think that to me just like says something more. I told you about this experience I had. I went to this uh this workshop where the first full day of the workshop, the facilitators just invited everyone to introduce themselves in a way that they had never introduced themselves before. And the whole first day, eight hours, was I'm going to say maybe 10, maybe 12 people introducing themselves. Wow. And I I mean it was it's I'm not a therapist so I don't think like I probably wouldn't need to repeat that experience but their attention and the safety that they created was not like a technical skill. Mhm. It was not a I mean it was but it was not like a okay everybody let's recap how we were able to sit here in total basically total stillness and completely hear everything that these people were saying like that is actually just years of experience and that's some kind of like a collective field that's happening. Um, so even though it maybe wasn't like a, okay, here's the 10 takeaways I got from that, I was like, these are these people are the real deal. Yeah, they are good mentors if you want to learn how to hold space while people tell you the most difficult things they've ever experienced.

So, I don't know. It it's a Okay, let's maybe Can I ask you this? Yeah. How How do you work through like a major breach of integrity or a major like fall from grace with a teacher or a mentor? Like somebody's maybe not even just teaching, but like preaching something and then something happens and it comes out that they were living in a way that's totally not not just like a little bit like, oh, they were working on it, but like it's a total opposite. It's total opposition to what they've been teaching. That's a good question. Um, how that happened, huh?

Um, so there was I mean sort of yes and sort of no. I think maybe not quite on that scale like no like secret lives that I'm aware of that I'm like you were intentionally misleading people, right? I think that my answer to that might be a little different. Like for me, I do think like intention matters in some regard in terms of like what I want to support and what I don't want to support and what support means to me. Um but I do think like in um 2020 when there was a lot going on in the US around Black Lives Matter and there was the horrible police murder and um the police murdering a black man. Um the life coaching there was some weird stuff though like the life coaching industry did not handle that navigate that very well in my opinion and one of my teachers at the time in particular I think wasn't very adaptive or responsive to the needs of her students. Um, and in a way like her teachings it didn't it felt she felt it felt like she was very reactive to invitations to step up and to like examine how she was operating and to make some significant changes. Um, and in my mind that is like a misalignment of integrity because I do think her tools if applied to this situation would have really helped her respond in a different way. Um, and I think she was on her own timeline and her own process with that because she did ultimately I think practice um, you know, discernment around that and utilize some of her tools and she became less reactive and she actually like integrated a lot of what people were telling her. Um, I'm trying to think like what my experience of that was. I certainly had feelings of like disappointment, a little bit of disbelief, a little bit of frustration um in how she handled that. And at the time, I don't think I had the reflection of of like, oh, Elana, like maybe you have something to say about this or maybe you have something to contribute. Um I did continue to learn from her. Um,

but I do think it was a good eye openening experience for me of like I can't ped like don't put anyone on a pedestal because everyone is human. Um, and if she had not reflected and made some adjustments to how she approached her business and like what she offered her students and the support she offered her students, I think I probably would have looked elsewhere ultimately. I think I was I was in a certification of hers at the time. Um, so I was like pretty locked in and kind of in the mindset of like, well, I'm going to get what I can get out of this. Um, but I think had I did go on to do a master coach certification training at her company and I think had she not made those adjustments for me it's not like I would have felt the need to like punish her in any way or I mean not that she even knows who I am but like like I don't think it was it wasn't a reactive thing but I think for me that would have been information for me that like I have I'm happy with what I have learned but I need to expand who I'm learning from, if that makes sense. That feels like a kind of long- winded answer, but that's the most direct uh example I can think of at the moment. Yeah, because I think it's I don't think it's long-winded. I think it's like actually super helpful to think this through because it highlights I mean it's really the thing is it's really hard to not just be like oh my gosh I'm getting so much from this interaction and and this tool is like affecting my it's hard not to see the person who's teaching you that as like the best teacher in the world the process like I think it takes sometimes these experiences where they don't handle something that's actually really important in a way that makes sense to you and it shows like where their lack of understanding is or their lack of uh just like being in touch with the world the world. I'm like, what's happening in your world? There's a lot of people who really choose like not to do that and they have reasons that they like for not doing that. I guess um it's it's tricky, but I think it sometimes it takes those moments to like remember that I've been getting nothing but like amazing information and experiences with this person. It is hard to just stop yourself from and be like, "Oh, they're human. They're probably up in some way or another." They have blind spots. No, they have no blind spots because look at how much my life has changed in relationship to what I've taken from that world. I have a I have a spiritual It's somehow I still I have a spiritual teacher now who I really adore. Mhm. And in my mind, I'm like, I know this is a human. Yeah. I've had like heartto-he hearts with this person. I don't think I have him on a pedestal of any kind. Um, but I notice in myself when someone's like, "Oh, I don't like his teaching or I don't like resonate with how or or I like outright think that, you know, the way he's teaching this is totally wrong and not helpful. I'm just like so taken back. I'm like, but yeah, but he's so humble and he's not trying to for He's like non-dogmatic." I'm just like, "Oh, but that's why it's so easy for me to feel the level of trust that I have for him because he's never forced me to do any. I've had teachers who have s strongly suggested things and not forced me to do anything, but like yeah, I've had much more rigid teachers in my life. So, I think it's funny where I just like sometimes have to be like this is my teacher for this topic. Mhm. I really appreciate and I like this person as a person and I love the way that they teach. It's like the perfect way for me to receive the information I want to receive from them and they couldn't tell me about how to parent. They couldn't tell me about some other aspect of my life because it's not there. They could coach me on it. Mhm. But they couldn't give me insights,

generic insights about parenting because they don't have that information. I have to tell myself that sometimes. I'm just like, yeah. Yes. Well, that's such a power. Like, it seems like a simple reminder, but I think what that's actually doing is it's like the reminding you that they're human and also reminding you that you can trust your own assessment of things and that there are some things that you are an expert on that they are not. And so, it's that discernment that we're talking about. Yeah.