This week's Mixer continues the conversation about what happens when mentors, teachers, and coaches turn out to be unmistakably human.
This time, Erin and Elana explore the difference between being contrary and practicing discernment. When are you listening to your own wisdom, and when are you refusing to try something simply because someone else suggested it?
They talk about the responsibilities on both sides of a learning relationship: how teachers can protect the integrity and safety of a group without becoming rigid or dogmatic, and how students can remain open to unfamiliar methods without giving away their authority.
Erin is enjoying her Aperol gin and tonic with rosemary from the garden. Elana is working through her ginger liqueur and peach juice, which improves as the ice melts.
Elana McKernan is a Master Certified Life and Creativity Coach who specializes in helping perfectionists create more by treating themselves better. Find her on Instagram at https://www.instagram.com/elanamckernan/ and book a consultation at https://www.coachingwithelana.com/book-a-consult.
Erin Aquin is a Master Certified Life Coach and co-author of the #1 bestseller "Superabound: Live the Life the Universe is Dreaming For You." Read the book at https://besuperabound.com/book and book a consultation at https://besuperabound.com/consultation.
Watch here
Listen here:
Yeah. Okay. And then the thing that keeps popping up to my mind is like, okay, but then when we're in a mentorship or when we're in a relationship with a teacher on a certain topic, I feel like sometimes there's this whole other I don't think I'm like a very I'm usually a very good student, not rebellious, but like I know there's a whole contingent of people who want to always do their own thing. They want to do it their own way. they learn something and they immediately are like, "Oh, I need to tweak that." For me, they never want to kind of follow a tried and true. I It's so I don't know why yoga is coming up so much today, but I'm just like, they're the people who used to come to my yoga class and be like, I'm going to do a headstand in the middle of the room while we're doing sun salutations. And I'm like, not in my class, you're not. Yeah. Like I'm glad you feel comfortable and you feel called to do that, but this is a group class and I'm trying to keep 40 people safe and you doing headstand person I've never met in the middle of the room feels more like your ego needing to show off and be cooler than everybody else. So please leave if you're going to keep doing that. And I would be the rigid teacher in those moments. just be like, "Oh, maybe you go to a place where you it's just a do your own thing." That doesn't happen in my classroom because I'm feel responsible for these people, right? You're taking ownership or you break your neck because I don't know who you are and what your level is. That's that's you're now taking my attention away from the rest of the room that might need something. Mhm. So, I also kind of feel like how do we know when it's discernment or just kind of being like, I'm not going to ever do anything anyone tells me to do and I'm never going to try somebody's method or plan just to stick it to them. Oh, that's such a good question. And I think there are two perspect like there are two angles that we need to look at that question from. There's like the angle of being the teacher and how to navigate that and how to like nurture the authority that the other person is claiming while protecting the space and the integrity of the space. So like that's one thing. And then the other thing I think is like how do you figure that out for yourself? [laughter] If you're being discerning or if you're being like uh what's the word? Um resistant or or brat bratty when you're being bratty. My teacher voice coming online. [laughter] I love that. I love that. Which I think I don't know. What are your thoughts? I mean I think that so identifying it in yourself for me I think it's like what what does it feel like to me it feels very different to be like oh like there's a part of me there's like some wisdom in me that I need to listen to and that I'm being compelled to adapt to and like what are my values and what is a valuesoriented path forward why am I wanting to change this is Is that aligned with my values? Is it not? Am I being resistant? Is there a growth opportunity here for me? Um, so to me that that feels [clears throat] very different. The brattiness feels much more reactive, much more um urgent and like I don't want to look at it as much. Whereas the other one feels like an opening like I'm learning about myself and connecting to myself in it. Yeah. I mean, I can only I'm like I'm only accessing the the part where I feel disrespected as the person at the front of the room. Like, but I mean, no, there's been times where I've gone to gone somewhere and someone like who's much younger and more flexible than me insists that I like do a pose a certain way. And I'm like, I have joint damage from a chronic illness and I can't do that that way. And I've also been I'm like not just being a brat but saying like I'm an authority on my body and I'm an authority in this modality. But I think like out of respect I usually talk to people beforehand. Like I usually say, "Hey, just so you know, I've taught for a long like I'm just using the yoga example, but like I've taught yoga for a long time. Um and I know certain poses are not going to work. I will be at the back. I will, you know, totally take care of myself, but like, yeah, just you don't need to have me do it this way because I'm not going to do it that way and it's not possible. Mhm. Like I think I would try to always extend that to a teacher if I'm in their setting,
but I I mean there's I' I guess there's been times too where I'm just like I don't think this is the room for me. Yeah. like as the student I'm like okay I tried it I don't need to come back I this isn't the thing for me at this moment but it's kind of like self- selecting out rather than being a brat and saying well just going to do a dance class instead of this what we're doing now I will be honest there is a part of me that like deeply admires the brattiness just cuz it's so like I was so conditioned to do the opposite and like be conscientious and it's kind of exhausting. [laughter] And so part of me is like a little bit jealous of that and like wanting to play around with that aspect of myself. And also I think the the key here is what you're raising. Is that getting in the way of you growing and learning? Yeah. Um, [clears throat] and is it like a a protect a protective mechanism, but also like protect like I don't like how people talk about protective mechanisms as though they're like a bad thing. Like it's great to protect ourselves, but like also good to get curious about why we're feeling threatened by a slow yoga class [laughter] if that's coming up. So yeah, I don't know. I think I'm a little bit mixed on that, but I do think it's worth reflecting on like where is this coming from? And I mean, if we're talking about coaching, we get to ask those questions, which is really fun. Um, yeah, think about it. Like, I've had I've had like long-term clients say to me during consults like, "I'll probably argue with you the whole time. I don't like being told what to do." And, you know, my last coach fired me. And I'm just like, [clears throat] "Thank you for telling me that because it makes me make sure I'm like I I always hear that as I'm just going to be like really gentle with you." Mhm. And like really go slow. Yeah. Um, I love clients like that because
if we hold the space well, sometimes you get to be the first person that they don't have their defenses up with. Like I love a Brady client. I don't like the yoga students, but I love a Brady client. Okay. What do you think is the difference though? That's so interesting. So, I think the difference is in a group setting where the job of the it's kind of like being on an airline, you know, like the flight attendant's job is to keep everybody safe. If somebody doesn't want to put their seat belt on, they don't want to put their tray table away. like it's obnoxious and they think it's not a big deal, but like the flight attendant knows more about the safety of the situation and like we're on her airplane or his airplane. We're like guests in their house. But in a yoga like in a so in a yoga session I would always be like you doing that is distracting me as the teacher and now I'm not aware of the rest of the room, right? and that and that now it's not safe. Mhm. [clears throat] So, I would have no qualms like kicking I kicked people out. I'm really nice. I was a really nice teacher, but I have kicked people out for like if you need to put your legs up the wall, I don't care. If you need to lay in shiobasa, that's great, but like don't be doing back flips. Yeah. While we're in I'm having like trauma flashbacks to my first uh yo-yo class in Brooklyn where like warming up. Everyone was doing headstands. They were doing like like very advanced poses, back flips, back bridges into like back flips. I was like, I am not in the right spot here. This is a beginner's class. What's going on? Yeah, that's ego. That's like people showing off, thinking they have to do it because they've got to get their workout in. [clears throat] Mhm. And there's often most studios have like a follow do your own flow or like do have classes especially for that kind of creative movement expression which is a beautiful thing where the practitioner is taking full responsibility for themselves and their space. Right? A group class is not that setting. Same thing. [clears throat] I probably wouldn't let somebody not let like I'm an authority, but in a group coaching setting, if someone was going into something that I felt like was crossing into a territory that was no longer coaching or might, you know, be triggering for somebody on a call, I would probably pull it back and I would say, I want to offer you some time on the side because I think that this is a bigger scope or I want to give you a referral for somebody that can take you deeper safely, right? And I think the difference is like in a one-on-one setting, my only job is their experience, their safety, so we [clears throat] can go as fast or as slow as they want to, but I'm not worried about what other needs are happening because my full focus is on them. Mhm. That's what I would think the difference is. Mhm. Yeah. I'm totally with you in the like like I love I love a bratty client. I love a client who like speaks up. Um and I've also I have had experiences. Um I don't know if I'd call it bratty, but like with clients who
I don't I don't know what I was about to say something and then I was like, "Oh god, that did not feel good in my body." Oh, no. Um, [laughter] I was going to I was going to say clients would like take up a lot of space in a particular way that feels kind of distracting, but then I'm like I want clients to take up a lot of space. Like I want [laughter] to create containers where that's possible. And also it is important to me to protect the integrity of the space and make sure everyone is getting room in that space. And so there are some situations that I've experienced with clients like in learning settings where I was the instructor where the types of questions and the the volume of questions and the amount of questions felt like it was coming from a place that was like self-doubt or anxiety and it wasn't building the space that I wanted to build. So like I kind of would name that and then explore alternate pathways to get those needs met. Gosh, like where else do we get to do that in life where we can say how do you feel as you're asking me that question right now? Yeah, I know. Where's that? Imagine if like college you could have that [laughter] level or high school or elementary school even. Yeah. Can I tell you a question? What's coming up for you when you're wanting to tell me a question? [laughter]
Yeah. Oh, it's so actually tell me [laughter] because asking me a question is different. Telling me a question feels very [laughter] like something else. I can I can see this has come up for you before. [laughter] [snorts] uh so as I mean I think there's kind of a natural bridge here to how you kind of see yourself as a teacher or a mentor. Um what is your relation like are you aware that some people might be putting you on a pedestal like are you can you like smell that out? like what is your approach to that? I think in the last couple of years [clears throat] I've I've really sought out my own mentors that are very down to earth that are like where I don't like I'm like I could sit and have a drink with this person and not feel self-conscious. [clears throat] That is very different from what I used to seek out. I used to seek out the people that would tell me how I was missing the mark. And you know, I would I kind of like sought out people who were kind of reflecting back my own horrible self-criticism. Like I'm good with myself. So I don't want I don't need anybody in my life who's, you know, trying to mold me into something better. Like I have Oh, good. I [laughter] have kids for that. I have kids that want me to be different. They want me to always be doing something. I'm not They know brattiness.
like yeah I mean and and that's and that's very humbling but I think it's because I have like the most like intimate close relationships within my household. I am not looking for like deep challenges from the people who mentor me and teach me. And I hope that being around that and seeing that as actually really powerful. I didn't think it could be powerful. I was like, "Oh, they're too nice. They're I'm not going to get anything out of this. Everyone listening. [laughter] I need cracking the whip." No. And now I'm just like I I think that people who are trying to crack the whip are probably doing that for their own performance and presentation. Um it bugs me now. And so I think that as in the rare settings that I am teaching, I just try to be a person and try to like
yeah I it's so much effort to put on the whole like a effect of Oh, I know. totally put together teacher. It's just like I stopped doing it a while ago and I'm like I don't feel drained after working. I don't feel drained after teaching. I feel like like I actually connected. It feels like just it feels kind it's similar to teaching yoga. It's like I feel like I did a yoga class because I just got to witness people having like a shift of their experience. Got to facilitate a little bit of it. But it wasn't like me making it happen or pushing people to for it to happen. It was like I just did the thing. I made the space for the most natural shift to occur. Mhm. It's very fun. Yeah, it it is so much more fun. How are you to approach things that way? Yeah. How have you shifted your approach to being a teacher and to being a student? I think um so I've never I've always been very uncomfortable with the like I am I know everything I know more than you like that sort of dynamic. Um and I think I used to be more vigilant about is is the student outsourcing their expertise? are they like putting me on a pedestal? And if they if I noticed some of that happening, I would make it mean like I had done something wrong. Um, and I think I have shifted more into an assumption that that will probably play out cuz I I just think that's like very natural to like at least any like high performing students who are like which is a lot of who I work with who are like I want to get an A like I want to be better. um they tend to bring some level of um [clears throat] almost like unearned humility. Like I think humility can be a good thing and a beautiful thing in learning environments and also I think like to an extreme not so helpful. Um but so I just assume that that's probably going to happen. I assume they'll probably like assume that I'm right when I say something. And that's not terrible. like I think like I have experience to share and I have um skill that I've developed with practicing these tools a lot but um now I'm just like assuming that will happen and um looking for opportunities to help my students connect to their own wisdom, expertise, curiosity. That to me feels so much better than being like, "Oh no, have I positioned myself above them?" Because even that, like me thinking I have to be hypervigilant around that is a little bit like it's like kind of positioning me above them in a way that feels kind of icky. Like I am more powerful than them, therefore I must be watchful that they're not [laughter] Yeah. And like I'm not a ruler. And like I do understand power dynamics and I understand like institutionally if I'm the instructor I do wield a certain amount of power and also I I want to help my students connect with themselves via whatever they're learning and if that's my goal that I can make center central um it makes my job a lot easier. And it's so funny that you say that because I think there's plenty of people who teach that don't think that's actually their job. Yeah. My job is to know all the answers and my job is to tell people how it is. Um but like that's why you are so effective because you're actually concerned with helping people connect with themselves and helping people find their style and the way that works for them. and like doing that while while definitely learning new skills and going through the road bumps of like this is an awkward way of it's so funny someone was talking about I was in this training and they were doing like mirroring and I was like oh [ __ ] mirroring I don't want to do that because that's not how I coach like I actually find that I know it's very helpful for a lot of people but like whenever I do it it's just a natural thing and I find it very contrived when I'm talking to somebody. I'm just like, "Oh, I know what workshop they did. If I go like this and they go [laughter] and then I lean forward, they lean forward." I'm just like, "Oh, this is so it's so inauthentic to me." And I can't I know that in other schools of thought and other modalities, it's so important and so valued. I just like kind of come back to this is just someone's thought about it. Yeah. Maybe someone did some research with a certain group of people and found that this was effective in my personal I would learn I will learn it and I will do it if I have to for a training and then I will never do it again on purpose [laughter]
because it's Yeah. It's like it's one of those examples of it's not just like good for everyone because someone said it was good, right?
AI can mirror. Yeah. [clears throat] Like that's literally that's like whenever I'm teaching someone like that's what I want to help cultivate. Like you can dis you can agree with me, you can disagree with me. I I don't like I will speak up if I feel like they're not engaging because that's a whole different thing. That's something that I feel very confidently like I will lean on my authority around that because I think that's like a non-negotiable for me. But if they're engaging and they disagree with me like awesome, where did that come from? Is it coming from a reactive place? In which case, let's unpack that. So that like because that that's another piece that I have as I've um gained more experience teaching that I've leaned into more is like my impulses are also valuable and my students are as well and like even if they're in conflict that's not a problem necessarily but that can even be valuable for the other students to see like you can have two different perspectives and neither needs to be wrong. There can be many more than two perspectives. Yeah. And I think I and I also think you know we haven't really talked about the responsibility of the student but I think it is the responsibility of the student if they've chosen to put themselves in a situation where they are learning to maybe try things they don't think they will like. Yeah. Like I did not want to learn how to process emotions with people when I was in coach training. Which is so funny because you're such a like emotionally aware coach now. Now I am because they made me do it. And I was like, well, I paid a lot of money to be here and I can't just run out of the room screaming. So, I'm at least going to try this so that if I decide I'm never doing it, I can at least say because I tried it and it didn't work or I tried it and it was not for me or I tried it and like if I was really honest, I tried it and I was not emotionally uh intelligent enough to handle it, which is probably where I was when I said
But now I'm like, "Oh, this is the best. This like cleans so much up. I think it's really important. I love it." But I would not have done that if I had just been a brat of a student. [clears throat] How would you cuz that's a piece of teaching that I think I could probably develop a little more. It hasn't come up that often in teaching, but like like holding students to like you're going to try this. um [clears throat] like how would you how did your instructor navigate that or did you just kind of process that all internally or like how would you wish to be held in that tension?
So I mean I I kind of remember it from the coaching world but I actually really borrowed this from being a spiritual teach like teaching meditation. Sometimes you people show up to a meditation class and you're like, I've never seen this person. They might think what I'm about to do is like very outside the bounds of whatever they think meditation is. And so I would just say like I would kind of just set the container of the class and say I'm going to offer you a practice. I invite you to try it as long as it doesn't feel unsafe to you. And [clears throat] if you don't like it, you never have to come back and you never have to do it again or we can talk about like what came up. But maybe you're, you know, just like maybe keep an open mind and just give this a try.
I've said that to people in coaching before. I'm like, you might hate it. I actually love that phrase. That is the best most disarming phrase to students is like you might hate what we're about to do. A lot of people find this really awkward. I like pump up how uncomfortable it's going to be. And I'm like, okay, so we're going to learn processing. And they're like, oh, that [laughter] doesn't sound so scary, Arian. Why are you sound horrible? I'm just like, I didn't want to do this. It was really uncomfortable for me. And I'm just like not as a not as theatrics but like I will share my own experiences with people and that tends to offer an a a door and and then I sometimes will even say like does anyone feel like that's not going to be okay for them? Like can we talk about that? Can we coach about it? because I'm also happy for someone to say, "I've had an experience in the past that, you know, was not okay and that I know and we can work on it together in another place, but it's not just like because that sounds dumb and I don't want to." Yeah. Well, we're gonna still try it. How about How about it's okay if you still think it's dumb and you don't want to, but you are willing to give it give it [laughter] a try. Yeah, it'll be an informed opinion. Yes. Yeah. Maybe that will be helpful. I don't know. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think part of what I'm hearing and how you're how you approach that effectively is like there's a level of like playfulness that can be so helpful when we're learning new things, especially if either we or like we're working with people who tend to be like, "No, I don't want to try the new thing." That initial response of just like, "We're just trying this. You don't have to like make it your life's mission to do this. We're just trying this for the next 5 minutes. you can survive the next five minutes. It lowers the stakes a bit. It lowers the stakes. And I think, you know, if you don't make it seem like it's a do or die situation, usually it's not for people. And if it is, it's like, you know, if I'm like, just try this food that I made, and someone's like, I no, I have a death allergy to like the thing you're serving me. Then I'm like, okay, that now. Yeah. If I'm like, "You must try it. I made it. It took me three hours and you're going to try it.
That's intense. They're going to try it and then need an epid. Oh no. Oh no. [laughter] Terrible. What a terrible outcome. No allergic reactions in learning environments, please." Yeah. And that way to think about it, too. It's like we're trying not to trigger an allergic reaction to people until they have at least experienced something once because then they'll know and then they never have to. There's plenty of coaches that hate processing and will never do it. Yeah. But if they needed to, they would have the skill because they learned it. Mhm. Yeah. I love that. This is fun. I know. This was a fun conversation. It actually grew on me. I think as the ice cubes melted, it became a little less sweet. So, it was actually quite good. How about yours? It was good. I didn't ingest the rosemary, but it's Oh. Oh, good. No glowing. I know. [laughter] So, do you have any like I know we talked about a lot in this call. Like what stands out to you?
I think what you really pointed to around teaching and like the what is the ultimate job of the teacher or the mentor is to help someone connect with like their their path and their dreams. Like it's what we do as coaches. It's not to impart dogmatic ways of doing things. it's like to help people live their best lives and hopefully like share any wisdom that we can when we're teachers. And I think as students, it's really helpful to remember that our teachers and mentors have whole human lives that we probably wouldn't want. Yep. Just to keep that in mind when we're putting on pedestals. Yeah. For me, I think the piece that you the phrasing of discernment that like you brought up and that we kept coming back to like I think in my mind, the more the skill of discernment is cultivated and developed in a person, the less devastating it will be to meet the truth that mentors, teachers are human and they're flawed and they're going to make mistakes. and they're going to disappoint you. Um because I think the the reason that that feel the stakes feel so high on that is like we're having to trust like we believe we have to outsource all of our trust to this person. So if we can't trust them in this one area then like what if we can't trust them anywhere? But if we cultivate that sense of trust like with ourselves it doesn't matter as much. The stakes are much lower. They can be disappointing in areas and we can still learn from them and we can still accept them if we want to or not. But like even if we just choose to walk away, it it'll feel different, I think. Yeah. Yeah. It's like the science is still true even if your chemistry teacher turned out to be a jerk. Oh, good analogy. Yeah. If you love if you love that and that's your path, you're not going to like let the humanness of a person like derail what you know and your the validity of your experiments and all that. So yeah. How can people find you my friends? Coachingwithalena.com or Instagram Elena Mccernin or Elena Mccernin I guess. Yeah. How about you? How can people find you? Um on Instagram it's buperabound and buperabound.com/coachingmixer
is where you can find the show notes for us and um all the things all the things that we do all the links. So amazing. Do you have a a deck coming out an oracle deck? Would you like to talk about that? Yeah, I am I am working on it. It's going to production hopefully in the next couple of weeks. So, I'll make sure I share when the pre-sale is live. And because the world is worlding right now, um I'm going to make sure we have partners for shipping in both the US and Canada, probably Europe. So, I'm going to try and make sure that it's available in places, but if you want it somewhere that I haven't mentioned, tell me who will ship it to you. Tell me your favorite stores. I'm trying to do it through indie producers this time. So, it's kind of a neat thing. Yeah, my favorite store or bookstore wants to carry it. The Superabound Oracle. It's really pretty. Oh, there's a really cool I we should talk after this. Yeah, I'm going to be doing this all near me. You know, it's funny because I I was talking about relationship based sales and relationship based marketing and I have not really utilized my own relationships for getting the word out on this. So, I will be following my own advice and doing that in the next couple weeks, but I'll let you know for sure when it's when it's available. Yay. I can't wait. So excited. All right. Thanks for listening, everyone.