Erin and Elana are back with cherries in their glasses and a conversation for anyone who is excellent at keeping going… sometimes a little too excellent. Erin is sipping a cherry gin and tonic, while Elana has whiskey with muddled cherries, seltzer, lime, and maple syrup.
If you have ever replayed a mistake, rushed to fix your feelings, or waved off help because someone else probably needs it more, this episode offers a kinder and more practical way forward. You will hear how to learn from what happened without making failure final, how to notice when you are surviving on crumbs, and how to create the conditions for your next attempt from a more supported place.
In this episode, you’ll hear about:
This conversation is for high-capacity people who already know how to push through, and are ready to build success that actually feeds them.
Connect:
Elana Mckernan is a Master Certified Life and Creativity Coach who specializes in helping perfectionists create more by treating themselves better. Find her free content at instagram.com/elanamckernan and learn about coaching at coachingwithelana.com.
Erin Aquin is a Master Certified Life Coach and co-author of the #1 bestseller “Superabound: Live the Life the Universe is Dreaming For You.” Learn more at besuperabound.com/consultation.
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Full transcript:
There are so many threads here that are interesting. I wonder like what have you had any experiences in your business where you've really had to like process difficult feedback or even like you tried something and it failed and you had to go through that process. Oh, like I I don't remember. like a normal Tuesday. Like like nine out of 10 things fail. It's what does that look like and have that changed for you over time? Okay. Because we talked about glossing over. What I used to do was just gloss right over it and just be like, "Okay, that didn't work. I'm going to just like throw spaghetti at the wall and try something new." And I wouldn't actually take the time to evaluate, you know, any glimmer. First of all, this is what I think why I think it matters is like I wouldn't look at like what I actually did that didn't work and I would also miss all the things that were like maybe a glimmer like oh I didn't sell out this XYZ program but I'm not looking at the data that says hey but like 500 people clicked this link to check it out And because I didn't look at that data, I didn't reach out to any of those people and say, I noticed you looked, you didn't buy. Can you tell me a little bit more about what would have been a a better fit for you or like how I could make this perfect for you? Mhm. And when I started to actually get serious about looking really deeply into everything, the things that worked, the things that like were total failures, um I realized that I could learn so much and iterate on those things. Um, and it was I think it was kind of it was kind of a breakthrough because I would just like take it really hard and not feel it and then gloss over and be like, "Okay, let's get ready to try something." Like I would just go on a roller coaster. But when I started doing that, it was like, if I can just get a little closer next time, if I can see if this is totally the wrong direction for the people I want to support right now, um, it actually saved me so much time. And then I would get I don't want to say excited, but I would be I would get like a little rush from, okay, this totally didn't work and now we're going to go dissect it. Like little bi high school biology, postmortem. I hate those terms when we talk about like we're gonna do a postmortem on this thing, but I'm like actually I see why that is a common business term because it's where so much can happen and instead of running from my own static about it, I was like a lot of times like the next idea that happened to work would come from that deeper dive on what absolutely flopped. Mhm. So, I don't know. It kind of like retrained me to go towards the things that were disasters and mistakes. And I mean, I I think I've shared this with you on a early podcast, but I once made a total mistake with a client where I had to reschedu a program that she signed up for. She was the first person to sign up this mastermind and nobody else signed up for that time slot and I had to go back to her and say, "I know I promised you this time. I can't do this time anymore." Do I need to refund you or can I can you are you open to switching to this other day? She said, "Yes, I will switch to this other day." And I was like, "I'm so sorry. And what I want to offer you is a free session for coaching. we can just do a private session. And after that private session, she's like, I also want to be one of your VIP clients. Wow. Like a horrible mistake. Totally embarrassing. Not at all the experience I wanted her to have that we turned into literally it's where the idea of the $10,000 learning came from because it was a contract worth 10 grand at the time. Mhm. And so I try to do that, but I understand that glossing over it often like misses that gold. Yeah.
It's so yeah, it's so interesting because I think the a few things that come like come to mind for me when you say that, but part of what I think I'm seeing in in what you're saying here is like failure is not a unilateral thing and like it's not death and we I think we relate to it. I mean, we don't think about that consciously in those terms, but we relate to it as like this is like very all or nothing and like if we fail, everything failed. It's like a very flat way of looking at things. Um, but it's also like even that one thing is not doesn't have to be the end game for you. Yeah. And if you don't like I think where the opportunity not that like I know we're talking about have being willing to like actually feel the pain of it and then go to the learning but I think the learning there is accessible when you're like okay this is like on a path to something this is not the final destination and so if I view this as being on a path to something beyond success or failure like what do I have to learn from this? beautifully said. Yeah. In uh in our book, Superbound, um the way that I kind of talked about that was like not mistaking a lantern like a specific moment in time, a specific goal or milestone for a vision. Because if you have a lot of if you have a vision, if you know what you ultimately would love to create with your not just this year, next year, but like with a lifetime, there are so many paths and possibilities for that. When a lantern doesn't get lit or a path is suddenly closed to you, it sucks. And you can actually just let it suck if you know that it's not the end. It's not like, well, this mountain doesn't exist anymore. There's nothing for me to climb. There's no path, right? There's just another path that maybe will take you somewhere even more interesting. Yeah. And I think the dance that I love that. And I think the dance there is giving like not forcing yourself to find that other path immediately. Yes. I think that's what we're talking about here of like allowing yourself not glossing over the reaction like because when you think about it like it is not a good condition under which to embark on a like lantern finding hike when you're exhausted and you have blisters on your feet and you're like hungry and tired. You got to refuel and then maybe like put some band-aids on and then go out to, you know, find the next lantern. Yes. Yeah. And it's kind of like feeling it is not actually a big deal when you can just kind of trust that like there is something else out there. There's something more. I'm, you know, I know I'm gonna be fine ultimately, but it's because of that, it's actually totally safe and okay for me to feel the full extent of like my disappointment, shame, confusion, sadness, anger, grief. Like, pick your pick your feeling. Multiple feelings if you want. Fine. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I like that. And I think the way like that is a skill as well that you can develop. Like it's not necessarily something we all know how to do, but it starts with just like exploring like what how would I want to hold space for whatever this is? How do I want to relate to myself when I'm feeling this? How would I want other people to be related to when they were feeling this? What would I want to offer them? Can you talk about that a little bit? I know that's like a I you're saying it. I'm like, I totally know what you mean, but I wonder if people understand that as a path to letting yourself be a human because that for me was like actually really a big deal. It was like I had to kind of ask myself, how would I take care of someone I love in this moment? How would I want them to feel in my presence? Yeah. And it feel like for me as well it was a journey to figure out and I'm still on it like I'm still figuring out and sometimes I'll be relating to myself really harshly and then go whoa what am I saying to myself? Yes. What is happening here? Um, yeah. I mean, I think it's just those those exact questions of like like I think the moment is it's noticing like, "Oh, I have some icky feelings coming up." Like, "I have some tough stuff coming up." And like just becoming aware of that because I think for a lot of people if they're early in the process with it, just those feelings will trigger a lot of like self- judgment and a lot of harshness. Um, like I think for me a lot of the narrative that like sometimes still comes up is like you should like you shouldn't be feeling this. You don't have a right to feel this. Why is like why do you care so much? You should like just be moving on. You should be like go going on to the next thing faster or like integrating this faster. Um, which like when you in your head it's like so hard to be to notice that happening because it's so automatic for a lot of people. But then when you actually like say it out loud or think about saying that to someone else, it's like horrifying. It's so mean. Like, can you imagine going to your best friend and they're like, "Oh my god, I had a rough interaction with someone. Someone sent me an email and they were like, "You're terrible." And then being like, "Why do you care so much about that?" Like, "What are you doing? Like, why are you spending time on this right now? You should go back to work. That's crazy. It's crazy. And I know coaches are notoriously hard on themselves and because we're like, "But I know a tool, so I should just be over it faster." Oh, yes. I think you just gave me like the most beautiful idea. Maybe this is like very specific to coaches for coaches, but like what would you say to your client? It's not even like what your maybe it's not what your best I mean your best friend would say tell me their name and where they live
sometimes but like if you think like I think maybe the counter for a lot of coaches who beat themselves up I'm a coach and I should not ever feel a feeling in a way that is disruptive to anyone else or whatever whatever mean thing we say to ourselves is Like would you ever talk to your clients in this way? Oh yeah, that's so good. Like can you are you willing to give yourself the same space to process container to process um as you would your client? It's not the like I should never have this because I'm a coach. It's like I'm going to give myself permission to hold myself differently. Yeah. Because I know how important that safety is and I know how important not rushing through this process is. Yeah. It's like and it's also because I'm a coach, I have the ski, the tools to hold space for myself. It's like even if you don't have the practice to offer yourself those tools, you do have the tools. So, it's like just kind of connecting the dots between those. Yeah. two things. Hopefully, you have the community and your own support team to do that for you because I think that's another thing we tend to do is like, well, I have a tool for this, so I should just go and do it and then never do it because or like try to do it for yourself because you should know how to do it. But it's like the magic of a lot of our tools is in the feeling someone feeling safe enough and held enough to actually go to that depth. Yeah. And like why wouldn't we give ourselves that opportunity? I never I almost never process something by myself.
I like make Steve process with me. I have I you know I save it up for my coach. Um, I can do it for small things and I could probably do it for big things, but it doesn't actually feel like selfcare. Like, it's like when you're when I was an acupuncturist, like I could give myself needles in like some areas and it will help, but it is not the same as going and getting a treatment from another practitioner who has a different opinion about where I might be blocked and where things might be excessive. like my diagnosis of myself is probably not all that spacious and maybe not always generous and even if it were like you still don't have to do it by yourself like there's such an assumption and I I had and still probably have vestigages of this as well of like there being a hierarchy of dealing with things or like a hierarchy of like resourcing yourself. Yeah. I especially when I was going through certification, the initial certification, oh my god, I was so like there was just such a baked in assumption for me that like I should I have the tools. I should be able to figure this out myself. And like if I don't I don't even know what I was making that mean, but like something about like it's just like prefer like for some reason there's it's like better to be able to do it on your own. I mean I do also think some of the way that the tools were presented were a little bit like hyperindividualistic. Um which is ironic because the coaching relationship it's like a relationship. It's a relational activity. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I don't know. That's really interesting. I think the I love this the idea like you just because you can theoretically doesn't mean you have to or you should or it's better than getting support. Yeah. I mean, I can massage my own arm.
If it's aching, I will. And like that's the thing is like I will totally coach myself. I will journal. I will think things through. I have a pretty strong spiritual practice that does feel like care, but there's certain things that feel like it takes away from the nourishment. So for me, like I don't really want to massage my own arm. I want I want to go lay on the bed with the nice spa music and have someone do that magic for me because part of the healing and the nourishment is in that relationships relationship and the receiving of that care and that I mean for for business owners I'm always like you are not good at receiving care like you're the generator of all the things or the leaders you know they raw raw rawing the team, getting everybody galvanized. Not always great at being recipients of any nourishment whatsoever or self-investment. So, it's kind of like a it's like yes, self-development amazing, but for certain things, are you willing to just receive the support? Yeah. not always the best at receiving support, especially in your own modality. Why do you think that is? I mean, you I think it's everything you said. It's like, well, I I paid money for the certification and I'm I've got these tools and, you know, I'm watching other people get so much. I think that might be the the like the mind [ __ ] about it is like you watch your own clients get so much benefit from your coaching that you're like, "Well, I should just be able to do that for me." Which is crazy because the other um interpretation of that could be receiving coaching from a brain other than yours is incredibly powerful. Yeah. Yeah. I and I in my experience what you just said is true. Yes, absolutely. But yeah, I do see why people might be like, "Well, I do this for other people. I should just be able to do it for myself, right?" And then beat themselves up if they're not doing it for themselves in a way that's effective or blah blah like whatever we make it. We're so mean to ourselves and we don't know it. I know. I also think there's a way in which like there's a perspective almost of like I I wish there were like a piffy way of saying this like the minimum like I will give myself the minimum that I need to move forward like how what is as little as I can take in order to thrive as much as possible like maximizing gains for like minimum effort there's this like almost like a cultural mindset as of like like yeah like how like how little can I give to myself in order to move forward here rather than like how can I like luxuriate in care or create like a generosity of care for myself or an ecosystem where I am held. I think I actually think this is like the secret to a successful coaching business, what you just did, because people are trying to live on the minimum like viable nourishment, but then they're trying to sell people on the expansive luxurious acts of self-care. Oh, I got goosebumps from that. Yes. But like that like I just think like that's the mark that's the marketing problem for anyone who's like I'm having trouble connecting with the people I want to work with. It's like are you an exemplar of what you're offering? Not like am I perfect and do I never have a human emotion, but like if like I'm so this was my whole thing with the emotional sobatical was like I'm going to write this book on a return on joy for your business. Not a return on investment but return on joy. So your business should be part of bringing more joy and delight into your life. Like I cannot do that from within the mindset I was living in at the beginning of the year. Yeah. Like that would be totally out of integrity. I don't even know what I would say. I would maybe like share some stories about things I've done with clients, but like I don't think I would have more to say if I don't actually give myself that kind of room. Mhm. And I but I had the conversation of like, but you already take Fridays off and you already, you know, you have the workout things and the meditation things and like you have all the like you're doing really well for self-investment. I'm like, but those are also things for the nourishment. They're not necessarily all for the joy.
And interestingly, taking the focus off of
what's the next outcome and how much less can I like give myself so that I can maximize this thing and finish this book and d
it has like kind of brought more people in. Our podcast has a lot more listeners. Oh, I've heard. Yes, I know. I've heard listening to us ramble and drink, but like things are starting to shift in a way where I'm like, "Oh, this is one of those really funny keys to success where I can't I couldn't have planned out the oracle deck. I couldn't have planned out where the book has is going. I couldn't have planned out some of the crazy things that we are doing this summer that I've wanted for years and I'm like, this is my return on joy." Like, we're getting a pool. What? That's so exciting. I'm like, if I just had a pool, I would never need to leave other than for really great trips. Yeah. So, we're doing it. We're just going to get a pool. Return on joy. But that I love that. Oh my gosh. You know what? I'll be honest. there's like a pervasive I don't know like philosophy or like adage in the coaching industry that like if you are selling coaching you must always or if you are a coach you must always have your own coach and on the one hand like I think everyone should have a coach so like I agree with that and also like different people are in different situations and also there are times where coaching has not been the right modality for me personally when I haven't been yeah so it's always like landed a little bit oddly to me. But what you pyramid scheme thing when people Exactly. Yes. Exactly. Um but like what this conversation I think has made me have a little bit of a different perspective on that. Like I still think there can be nuance to that. But the idea of coaches having almost a responsibility for
I I don't I'm going to I have an asterisk by this word but like investing in their ecosystem of care. Yeah. Is really interesting and that feels really true to me. The asterisk that I want to say is I think investing can happen in a lot of different ways and that doesn't always mean like hiring someone, exchanging money for coaching. I do a lot of like coach trade arrangements. I've relied on a lot of friends who've offered for coaching during tough times. So like I don't necess necessarily mean like you must shell out $10,000 every 3 months to hire the top tier coach if you want to be in integrity, but thinking about it in those terms of like how can I Yeah. How can I like have a luxurious amount of care and support does feel in integrity to a coach who is trying to help other people do the same in their lives. Listen, I mean, we could get in so much trouble for it's like such a spicy take, but we're at the end of our dreams. I don't think it always has to be a coach. I think it has to be like so I mean I I love the term that and I use the term self-investment. I just think that has to be present if you are if you want like if maybe people don't care like maybe people are like I just want to do this to make a buck but I think if you really care about presence with other people and supporting them with whatever your tool is coach consultant like therapist whatever it is I just think it gives you a different energy with your people if you don't have a client like you don't need something from your client. It kind of circles back to what you started with like we can be game for the tough moments with clients where maybe they are saying something like maybe they're mad at us for something we said or how we handled something. You need a certain level of like you just need a baseline of like full nourishment to be game for that. Yeah. To be able to like feel it, get support when the things are hard. And it doesn't have to be coaching. Mhm. I like coaching, but there's like modalities that people are very big fans of and I'm just like I no never. I know coaching is that for some people and that's okay. Yeah. I think the the idea of like your relationship to care mattering and having reverberations into your business because if you think about it like if you have a stingy relationship with yourself when it comes to getting support, how do you even know how to support? Like every a lot people in our world struggle with that. Like most clients who live in the world, especially if they're women, are like it's selfish to treat or it's like too much of a luxury or it's not necessary. So like how not that you're going to like need to overcome their objections or anything, but just in a like leading by example way, how are you going to show what it looks like to shift your relationship to care taking care of yourself and like supporting yourself if you don't go first? Exactly. And like and if you haven't done some work around your own thoughts and feelings about it. Then anytime someone says to you, I've had this conversation with Steve. I'm like, "No one has ever told Steve his prices for coaching were too much." I've heard it so many times. I've heard like, "Wow, so expensive. How could you blah blah blah? My therapist is like $100 a session." I've heard that before, but I don't really have a negative feeling about it anymore because I've done so much work around my money blocks. And I also feel like I'm like I have the receipts for people who have made a lot of money, learned how to work four days a week, kept their business open instead of quitting and like moving across the world. And like like I just don't need anyone else's validation for doing what I'm doing. Yeah. And like that just feels good because then it means I don't need the world to like tell me about me. Yes. and the market because they're scared of hearing those things which like I'm I'm having a little it might be the whiskey but I'm like I think this is really Yeah, I think this is really pretty significant like and it comes down to like for me like what is my vision for the world? I want a world where I want to like be co-creating a world with others where we're not thinking about support in terms of like how little like what's the bare minimum that we can offer and still you know have an acceptable world right I want to be thinking of like how can we like give so much support we're like like encircling the world in in piecing it in support. I know I mean that sounds like a little bit cheesy, but that that's like what I want to be creating. So, it makes sense. And I say this to someone like again, I think it doesn't mean you have to like go out and immediately hire a coach or spend $100,000 on coaching a year. I think there are ways to create support and invest in support that don't look like that or do if that's what you want. But like I I do think as like an orientation that really appeals to me. Yeah. I think it doesn't Yeah. Oh, we're gonna get in so much trouble. It doesn't have to be a financial exchange. I mean, for someone listening to this podcast who's a brand new coach, it could just be like sitting down and contemplating these ideas for yourself and figuring out like where are you with this this track, this conversation? Where do you want to be with it? How do you feel about it? Like maybe just doing some deep thinking about where you land on that spectrum we talked about earlier or like where you are with how expansive are you with your own support. You know, I've had people tell me like, "Hey, I read your book and it totally changed this about my life." And I'm like, "Great. That person spent like 30 bucks and did something with it." Yes, that's also an investment. Yeah. And also I think the piece of that is like where do you land in this and what's your vision and like are those is there a misalignment there? And if so like what is that misalignment and what does it look like to nudge yourself ever so slightly toward that vision?
Elena gave you homework everybody. I think that was like half and half. It's good. That's good. Okay. Wow, this flew by. So good. Yeah, we had no idea what we were going to talk about. I'm super jet-lagged. It feels like one in the morning to me right now. Yeah, Erin is jetlagged. I'm like, I've had a week. This has been fun. But that's that's how the magic happens. And everybody listening, thank you for listening. Yes, this is like a this is a resource for you. We want to be a resource for you. Um I never ask this and I always think about it later. Like if you enjoy the show, please rate it where you listen to it. Um if you're on YouTube, you can like and subscribe, all those kinds of things. But wherever podcast ecosystem you are using to listen, we would really appreciate if you could let us know that you're listening. Um give us a rating and let us know what you want to talk about. Yes. Or what cocktail recipes we should try. your ratings that I don't know much about the podcast gods, but I think your ratings like help us get to other people who could use support and more people who are listening means we have more topics to talk about and more support that we can give. So, yes. Yeah. Because we're not going to just talk to each other for a thousand years. We want to hear what you have to say. We might run out of things to say. What? It's possible. Okay. How can people find you? um coachingwith elena.com or on Instagram where frankly I'm a little bit more active some days um at elena mccernin how about you um bupbound.com is where you can find me for coaching things and if you want to see all of the picture not all of the pictures but a lot of the pictures and recommendations from my trip to Scotland I'm sharing those right now it's not like a coachy business thing but I realized I rely so much on people's experiences when they travel and I love adventure. So trying to pay it forward by sharing the stuff that was good. So if you're going to Scotland, here's what I liked and that's on Instagram superbound. It's so good. The pictures are amazing. I'm like so jealous. It's most my kids hamming it up. Yes. They look like they're having so much fun. I love it. All right, everybody. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Bye. Bye.